Wheelock's FAQ chapter 3

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Wheelock's FAQ chapter 3: Questions

Questions are listed at the top of the page and are divided into several categories. Click on the links at left and you will be taken to the question and corresponding answer below.
Category: General
GEN
I'm seeing adjectives (specifically "my") going 1st declension and second declension. Is this common? Or are they not doing this and I'm totally confused?
GEN
When a noun is masculine but "looks" feminine - like agricola, poeta, etc, do you "decline" its moderators with 1st or second declensions?
GEN
I want to make sure I understand how to figure out what declension a noun is. Do I just go back to the root of the word, then figure out if I am dealing with an -a, -us,or -er noun then decide what the word could be?
GEN
When I am translating sentences and see a noun ending in -I for instance, which can mean several different things, how do I know how the word is being used?
GEN
I'm very confused about fIlia/fIliAbus. How do I decline this?
GEN
In an inflected language such as Latin would it be presumptuous of me to assume that these adjectives should follow rather than precede the noun that they modify, or is there no hard and fast rule.
Category: Practice/Repetition sentences (PR's)
PR3
In PR #3 I take Sapientam amicarum to mean the wisdom of friends. Why isn't it amicOrum?
PR3
While I translated PR #3 as "My daughter always praises..." the word order looked to me like it was actually a type and there should be 'lauda' instead of 'laudat.' Is there a typo?
PR10
In PR #10, I'm not sure how to translate "your" and "my".
PR10
In PR 10, The prepostion 'in' requires the ablative, so it would be vitIs, right? Then daughters' is in the plural genitive, is that correct?
PR11
In PR #11, daughters is a feminine noun, sons is masculine. How can "My" agree with both of them? Is there a standard that governs an adjective that modifies 2 nouns of different genders?
Category: Sententia Antiquae (SA's)
SA2
In SA 2 most people changed Augusti to Augustus. Are we supposed to change names according to the declension? I wouldn't have thought a name would be changed. Is there a rule about this?
SA7
In SA 7 most people used "a greedy man" for avArus. Why would this be a greedy man and not simply greed? Is this just a matter of interpretation, or did I miss something?
Category: Translations (TR's)
TR1
FIlium nautae ROmAnI in agrIs vidEmus. Can anyone out there explain the genitive masculine form ("Roman") of the adjective? I am questioning why it doesn't agree with either "agris" (in case and number) or nautae (in gender).
TR1
TR 1 starts out, "Agricola et vItam et fortUnam nautae saepe laudat;". It seems to me that this reads much more easily without that first "et". Am I right in thinking it's a misprint and should be deleted?
Category: Groton and May (GM's)
GM13
In GM 13, how can malI be nominative plural?

Wheelock's FAQ chapter 3: Answers

Category: General
GEN:
I'm seeing adjectives (specifically "my") going 1st declension and second declension. Is this common? Or are they not doing this and I'm totally confused?
A:

Jennifer's answer:

Adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in gender, as well as case and number. One kind of adjective declines like a second declension noun when it modifies masculine or neuter nouns, and like a first declension noun when it modifies feminine nouns. So you'd have puella parva, but puer parvus.

Scott's answer:

But remember that it is agricola parvus.

GEN:
When a noun is masculine but "looks" feminine - like agricola, poeta, etc, do you "decline" its moderators with 1st or second declensions?
A:
Adjectives must agree with their nouns in gender. To do this, they *don't*
necessarily have to use the same endings as the nouns they're agreeing with. So
adjectives describing masculine first-declension nouns have masculine endings.
And all the adjectives you've learned so far use the same endings as masculine
nouns of the second declension when they're modifying masculine nouns. So, yes,
for purposes of this chapter, decline adjectives describing first-declension
masculine nouns with second-declension masculine endings.
GEN:
I want to make sure I understand how to figure out what declension a noun is. Do I just go back to the root of the word, then figure out if I am dealing with an -a, -us,or -er noun then decide what the word could be?
A:

Sebastian's answer:

This technique works for the moment, because only the first two declensions have been introduced, but, be careful to not over-generalise the method. Even at this early stage, there are traps. For instance, it is in general true that nouns in -a in the nominative belong to the first declension, but a noun like 'arma' (arms) ends in -a but is in fact a plural noun of the second declension.

Similarly, that a noun ends in -us in the nominative is insufficient to conclude that it is a second declension noun. For instance, 'corpus' (body) is a noun of the third declension and 'manus' (hand) a noun of fourth declension. Similarly, nouns in -er need not necessarily be second declension, e.g., 'pater' (father) from the third declension.

In general, you need to know the genitive to determine the declension of a noun. So, 'agricola, agricolae' tells you that it is a noun of the first declension, but not 'arma, armorum' since you know that first declension nouns have genitive singular in -ae (although, 'tenebrae, tenebrarum' (darkness) is of the first declension as well despite the genitive in -arum as 'tenebrae' is a plural noun). Similarly, 'amicus, amici' and 'puer, pueri' are second declension, but not 'corpus, corporis', 'manus, manus' and 'pater, patris' since regular second declension nouns have genitives in -i. (Note that the neuter nouns of the second declension in -um, e.g., 'donum, doni', also have genitives in -i. Again, nominative ending in -um is insufficient to guarantee second declension.)

Anyway, back to the original question of how one determines the declension of a noun in context. The short answer, as I have said before, is 'you have to know it'. For instance, 'Lauda mores populi.' Praise the delay of the people? This is, of course, incorrect, and you will only realise it if you know that 'mora, morae', i.e., delay, belongs to the first declension, and can therefore not have a form in -es. The correct reading is 'praise the character of the people', 'mores' from 'mos, moris', a third declension noun. Again, 'naves ex portu educunt'... They educate the ships from the gate? If you know that 'porta, portae' (gate) is from the first declension, and 'educo, -are' (to rear, educate) from the first conjugation, then, you'll realise that they don't have forms in -u and -unt respectively, so this reading is incorrect. The correct reading is of course 'they put the ships to sea' (i.e., they lead the ships out of the port), 'portu' from fourth declension noun 'portus' (port) and 'educunt' from third conjugation verb 'educo, -ere'. In both of these examples, if you hadn't known the declensions of 'porta', gate, and 'mora', delay, a priori, you might well have come to the conclusion that they were of the third declension and fourth declensions respectively from their morphology.

GEN:
When I am translating sentences and see a noun ending in -I for instance, which can mean several different things, how do I know how the word is being used?
A:

Sebastian's answer:

Generally, you can tell from the context. We do this in English too; for instance, 'bank' is both a financial institution and the side of a river. How do you tell what the word means when you encounter it?

Given an arbitrary word in context, you need to know what the possibilities are for that word. This is why you need to know which declension nouns belong to from the start. It is generally too late to try to figure out the declension of a noun from a text you're reading (although this is often possible), because knowledge of the declension of a noun a priori helps you to decode the syntax with the aid of the context. (This principle applies to the morphology of all the inflecting parts of speech, esp. verbs, nouns and adjectives.)

Take an English example of 'axes' in 'the major and minor axes of an ellipse'. Now, the obvious interpretation of 'axes' would be the plural of 'axe', and, if this is the only possibility you think of, then the phrase would make little sense: why should an ellipse have a axe? The correct interpretation, of course, is that 'axes' is the plural of 'axis', but unless this possibility occurs to you, then you are hard pressed to decode the phrase. Consider 'to found a city', which creates a grammatical problem if interpreted as the past tense of 'find', or 'to fell a tree' as the past tense of 'fall'. This applies to other languages too, e.g., French 'Je vous suis partout.' I am you everywhere? No, more likely, I follow you about, 'suis' being a part of 'suivre' rather than 'être'. 'Les poutres étaient la maison.' The beams were the house? More likely is 'The beams hold up the house.', 'étaient' from 'étayer' rather than the more obvious 'être'.

This applies to Latin too: often, you get hung up on one possible interpretation of a given word, and fail to make any sense of the sentence. For instance, 'Viator est alienum cibum'. A traveller is foreign food? Likelier: a traveller eats foreign food, 'est' from 'edo' rather than 'sum'.

In summary, then, to discover the meaning of a word that can mean several things:

1) Be familiar with its declension/conjugation so as to avoid introducing extraneous (erroneous) interpretations by mistaking a word for a similar word, e.g., mora/mos, porta/portus, educare/educere. Perhaps there is only one possibility after all.

2) Consider all the possibilities for a given word by not restricting it to the most obvious root word, e.g., for 'est', don't immediately conclude that it is a part of 'sum', but think whether it might be part of another word like 'edo'.

3) Use the context in which the word occurs to narrow the possibilities. By context, I refer to both syntactic and semantic context. For instance, the semantic context of 'Viator est alienum cibum.' makes 'est' as a part of 'sum' unlikely. The syntactic context of 'Verbum deum est veritas.' makes 'deum' as accusative singular unlikely, despite the fact that this is the only possibility for 'deus' if one does not realise that it is irregular.

GEN:
I'm very confused about fIlia/fIliAbus. How do I decline this?
A:

Jennifer's answer:

fIlia
fIliae
fIliae
fIliam
fIliA

fIliae
fIliArum
fIliabus
fIliAs
fIliabus

You decline 'fIlia' just like a regular 1st declension noun except that the dative and ablative plural forms are usually changed so as not to confuse them with those same forms of 'fIlius' - you don't want to confuse the sons with the daughters, which you easily could if you used 'fIliIs' for both.

Sebastian's answer:

Yes, as Jennifer explained, 'filia' (daughter) is irregular in the dative and ablative plurals to distinguish them from that of 'filius' (son). Similarly, 'dea' (goddess) has dative and ablative plurals 'deabus' to distinguish them from that of 'deus' (god). (Note that 'deus' is itself irregular, with dative and ablative plurals 'dis' in addition to the regular 'deis', the former more common than the latter.)

GEN:
In an inflected language such as Latin would it be presumptuous of me to assume that these adjectives should follow rather than precede the noun that they modify, or is there no hard and fast rule.
A:
Adjectives are usually placed after the noun they modify, except for
adjectives denoting size or quantity, which precede their nouns. But
placement can be changed to emphasize the adjective.
Category: Practice/Repetition sentences (PR's)
PR3:
In PR #3 I take Sapientam amicarum to mean the wisdom of friends. Why isn't it amicOrum?
A:
They're girl friends ("amica, -ae"), not friends of either gender ("amicus, -i").
PR3:
While I translated PR #3 as "My daughter always praises..." the word order looked to me like it was actually a type and there should be 'lauda' instead of 'laudat.' Is there a typo?
A:

David C.'s answer:

Mea filia can be either nom. or voc. since Wheelock (p. 11) says:

... [in the first declension] the vocative has the same form as that of the nominative. -W

But I think it is vocative because of the previous line:

In modern punctuation the vocative is separated from the rest of the sentence by commas. - W

The author of the book wants to insert an exercise on the voc. here. But if I heard the line rather than read it, I would translate it as:

My daughter is forever saying her friends know it all.

Michael Myer's answer:

WRT Ch 3 PR 3: Sapientiam amicarum, filia mea, semper laudat. I'd like to offer the following:

Yes, with the commas separating out the mea filia, it should be regarded as vocative. In this case, an analysis & translation would go something like:

Sapientiam amicarum, filia mea, semper laudat.
acc - DO gen-poss voc-DA adv 3rd sg pres
wisdom of friends o daughter mine always s/he praises

My daughter, [I tell you now that] he always praises the wisdom of friends.
He always praises the wisdom of friends, my daughter.

Without the commas, that filia mea would instead look like a nominative subject, and the result would be closer to:

Sapientiam amicarum filia mea semper laudat.
acc - DO gen-poss nom - S adv 3rd sg pres
wisdom of friends my daughter always she praises

My daughter always praises the wisdom of friends.
My daughter always praises her friends' wisdom.

PR10:
In PR #10, I'm not sure how to translate "your" and "my".
A:

They are adjectives. Like any other adjectives, they need to agree with the word they're modifying in number, gender and case. They are like the other Chapter 3 adjectives -- if they are modifying a masculine noun, they use second-declension endings; if they are modifying a feminine noun, they use first-declension endings. Even though you are a woman, you would speak of "Meus filius", "my son", and, to speak of his daughter, your husband would say, "mea filia".

The only time your being a woman matters when you're using Latin is if you want to use an adjective to describe *yourself*. "I'm tired." "I'm cross." I'm happy." You and I would say, "Fessa sum." "Irata sum." "Laeta sum," where Kirk and Michael and Ernie would say, "Fessus sum." "Iratus sum." "Laetus sum." ("Sum" means "I am")

PR10:
In PR 10, The prepostion 'in' requires the ablative, so it would be vitIs, right? Then daughters' is in the plural genitive, is that correct?
A:

David C.'s answer:

Yes to the first two questions, and yes to the third question.

I am guessing that since there is a choice concerning word order in the phrase, the emphasis in certain orderings would be different, as follows:
'in vitis filiarum' => It is in the daughters (rather than the sons);
'in filiarum vitis' => It is in their very lives.

The phrase needs a 'tuarum' in there for the 'your' in genitive plural.

So,
'we see' becomes videmus,
'great fortune' becomes 'fortunam magnam' or 'magnam fortunam',
'in lives' becomes 'in vitis',
'of your daughters' becomes 'tuarum filiarum' or 'filiarum tuarum',
'my friend' becomes 'mi amice'.

Putting it together lyrically would give:

Magnam fortunam, amice
mi, tuarum videmus
in filiarum vitis.

PR11:
In PR #11, daughters is a feminine noun, sons is masculine. How can "My" agree with both of them? Is there a standard that governs an adjective that modifies 2 nouns of different genders?
A:

Michael Myer's answer:

The first (and least enlightened) rule is that any masc + fem mixed-gender group becomes masculine. Throw one guy into a classroom full of girls and you have to call them either "discipuli" or "disciplae et discipulus."

But there is another force at work with the adj + noun et noun pattern: attraction. It is always possible with compound nouns for the adjective to be attracted into the case, number, and gender of the nearest noun to it.

So the phrase "my daughter and son" could appear as "mei filia et filius", but I would not at all be surprised to instead see "mea filia et filius."

Now as to your example, with plural dative indirect objects "filiabus et filiis", the form will be idetical no matter how you imagine it in the privacy of your own brain. For meus a um, the dative plural forms in masc fem & neut are ALL "meis." So think of it as masculine or think of it as feminine, it matters not this time. Run, fly, be free.

Category: Sententia Antiquae (SA's)
SA2:
In SA 2 most people changed Augusti to Augustus. Are we supposed to change names according to the declension? I wouldn't have thought a name would be changed. Is there a rule about this?
A:
Names are declined in the Latin, although not in the English. Or more properly,
they are declined in both, but according to the rules of that particular
language. The names may be of any declension, but are typically first, second,
or third. Augustus, for example, has the whole spectrum of second declension
endings in the Latin: Augustus, Augusti, Augusto, Augustum, Augusto.

In the English, of course, you just decline as normal: Augustus, Augustus's,
Augustuses (if there are more than one), etc.

Additionally, for names well-known to your (English-speaking) audience,
you should probably use the name as he is generally known. For example, one
Wheelock sentence refers to a "Horatius". In that sentence,
the description of the person, time of writing, etc. fit the well-known
Latin writer Horace quite well, and Horace's family name was Horatius. Thus,
I translated him as "Horace" instead of "Horatius."

Incidentally, you get the same situation in Biblical translation. You could
translate "Liber Isaiae" as "Book of Isaias" (or Esaias), but you'd probably
have more success translating as "Book of Isaiah."
SA7:
In SA 7 most people used "a greedy man" for avArus. Why would this be a greedy man and not simply greed? Is this just a matter of interpretation, or did I miss something?
A:
Not really. "Avarus" is one of many adjectives that function as
"substantives" (this is what Cassell's dictionary means when it lists
"Subst" and a set of associated meanings). That is, it refers to things or
people who have that quality. You'd use the first declension adjective
endings if it's a greedy female, or second declension endings if it's a
greedy male or neuter thing.

There are generally related abstract nouns for concepts such as "greedyness"
or "avarice", which are very often feminine and usually of the third declension.
Here, "avaritia," which is a typical form of such an abstract noun (although
in this case it's first declension).

English also uses adjectives as substantives, i.e., nouns. For example, in
English we might say: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, or, Only the Good die Young.
All adjectives, but used as nouns.

Now, these examples are always given (at least, these are
the ones that I always give :-), but you should note
that Latin uses substantives MUCH more than English
does. Sure, you COULD use a substantive in English and
say "When the company starts cutting benefits, all the
good leave," but this, of course, sounds very odd to
any native English-speaker. The reason I mention this
is that you will find many, many situations where
Latin (or Greek, for that matter) uses an adjective as
a substantive, and you'll have to add a noun like
"person" or "thing" to make sense (or at least sound
reasonably fluent) in English.

Here's another tip: In general, if the substantive
adjective is masculine or feminine, you should add
"person"; if it's neuter, you should add "thing." This
doesn't always hold up - in particular, Wheelock's
mentions (I think it's page 96 but don't have the book
here to check) that in some (non-nominative) cases,
the Romans used feminine substantives to agree with
the implied word "res" (i.e., "thing"). And in the
example below ("Latina"), the word "lingua" is assumed
(for this reason, many language names are actually
feminine substantives). But, in general, the
person/thing distinction above holds up.

Category: Translations (TR's)
TR1:
FIlium nautae ROmAnI in agrIs vidEmus. Can anyone out there explain the genitive masculine form ("Roman") of the adjective? I am questioning why it doesn't agree with either "agris" (in case and number) or nautae (in gender).
A:
It does agree with "nautae" in gender, although not in declension. "Nautae" is one of a number of (usually occupation-related) masculine nouns that belong to the first declension. A good, supposedly "complete," list of first declension masculine nouns can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6946/masculine.php
TR1:
TR 1 starts out, "Agricola et vItam et fortUnam nautae saepe laudat;". It seems to me that this reads much more easily without that first "et". Am I right in thinking it's a misprint and should be deleted?
A:

Bob's answer:

The "et ....et construction translates as :"both....and..."

Hence sentence translates as " The farmer often praises both the life and fortune of the sailor."

Category: Groton and May (GM's)
GM13:
In GM 13, how can malI be nominative plural?
A:

David Goldfarb's answer:

It's not a nominative plural. (If memory serves me right, "malum" is a neuter noun, so the nominative plural would be "mala". You guys haven't had 2nd declension neuters yet....) It is a genitive singular -- "fOrmae malI", "forms of evil". I translated it as "Many kinds of evil..." After that you're ok.


Last updated Thu Nov 13 17:09:10 GMT 2003

FAQ ©2003 by its creator Gary Bisaga and Meredith Minter Dixon. Copyright to FAQ answers is retained by their authors.